Wednesday, 22 September 2010

Proposals for Foreign Section review

There are suggestions being put forward to the Executive Committee to review the Foreign Section with regard to showing. The attached document outlines the proposals which are a work in progresss and still under discussion.

Foreign Section Review


  1. Having read the above proposal I don't think this will relieve the presure in the section. The section is still too big and with more new breeds who will gain recognition it will get bigger still.

    I think all Burmese related breeds should be put into the Burmese section, a new Rex Section should be put in place where all Rex including the Sphynx are shown, at the moment they are under one BAC but are shown in different sections.
    This will relieve the presure in the British Section where show managers are finding it very hard to find judges who can judge both the British & Selkirks at Imperial level.
    This will leave the remainder of the breeds in the Foreign sections to be split into Original & New right up to Imperial level.
    Therefore leaving space for any new "Foreign" breeds to be placed.

  2. I think the proposals look like an excellent place to work towards. I have always felt that the Asians should be in the Burmese section - they are Burmese-type cats, after all. Splitting the remainder of the foreign section into groups according to the type/coat pattern makes perfect sense from the perspective of giving the judges a better chance of properly understanding all of the breeds in each section. Look forward to seeing how this progresses.

  3. I agree with Caroline, it would seem logical to put the Selkirks with the other Rexes - - they are not especially welcome in the British Section as I understand it. As for the Foreign subsections - you may as well stick pins in, no-one is ever going to agree on the best way to split.
    Re. judge training - anything that speeds up the current system would be a good idea, drastic action is needed to encourage new candidates and support those who are already going through the scheme.

  4. This is certainly an improvement on the present situation and I would vote for it. I can't see the logic of putting the Singapuras in with Russians, Korats/ Thais and Abys though - can anyone enlighten me?

  5. The reasoning was that Singapuras and Abys are both ticked breeds.

  6. The Foreign section really does need a shake up and I think the proposals look good, I hope that changes come to fruition.
    The Selkirks aren't mentioned in the proposal and I would not want to see them in the same group as the other "Rex" breeds. The Selkirks have a completely different conformation to the other "Rex" breeds, they are in the right section now and I for one do not want to see them moved. There are now 17 judges listed who can judge the Imperial class in the British section, this can only continue to grow with another 5 PJ's also listed.

  7. I attended the Foreign Seminar last Saturday (despite it being my husband's birthday!!) I think that the suggestions forwarded there are - in the main - very good. As a long time breeder of Devon Rex, I can only agree with Nichola that the Selkirks should not come in with the Devons, Cornish and LaPerms as they have a totally different body type. The 'rexed' coat is the only similarity and whilst I understand the suggestion from some that ALL rexed cats should be under one aegis, the chubby Selkirk is so different to our long and elegant Foreigns that I feel they should stay with their chunky cousins, the British.

  8. I've never been involved with the foreign section but as others have mentioned selkirks in their comments, I need to add my support to what others have said in that I do not agree for them to be moved to the Foreign section just because of their curl. They were correctly placed in the British section for good reason way back when they were first recognised and are of British Type - that cannot be denied, hence them being placed where they are. I appreciate the foreign section might need a shake up but please leave the selkirks out of this and perhaps call the proposed Rex section the Foreign Rex Section? It would make more sense for the selkirks to move BAC's or have their own BAC than to move to the foreign section if thats seen as one of the reasons to move them.

  9. Some people seem to be missing the point regarding the Rex Section.
    As far as I believe all Rex including the Selkirks, the main point of the breeds is their coat, they can have any eye colour, any coat patern and in some cases any coat length.
    Of couse they have different body type, at the moment the Devons, Cornish & La Perms are all in the same section and they are all different to each other.
    At the moment the Selkirks are in a section where the British have strict guidlines to eye colour, coat patern and coat length therefore so much harder to breed & fault.
    To leave these breeds in the Foreign Section would still leave the section too big.

  10. I think looking at the foreign section alone will not ease the problem. Do we create extra sections or just adjust the seven sections we have. Do we look at the sections just by type or by coat or by breed,currently we have them all.

    Questions to spark we merge the siamese and orientals into one wasn't that long ago they shared an imperial class.This frees a section for using.
    Moving all burmese types into one section relieves some of the pressure in the foreign section.
    Using the free section to split the existing foreigns between two sections allowing space for the new breeds comming through to be allocated.
    Having a rexed section would make sense of this to give a focus on breeds with the rex gene to promote themselves. The arguments about specific breeds will never be settled, there will always be two arguments. How to split the existing foreigns is emotive but splits identified in the original document could be used.

    How it is split doesn't make huge differences as long as it doesn't make it more difficult for exhibitors. The reasons for splitting the section must be highlighted is it to make it easier for judging, qualifying new judges or to please exhibitors.......

  11. Another point I missed and should have said, surely the aim of these changes is to help new judges.
    Surely it would be much easier for new judges to have all Burmese type breeds in one section and to have all Rex types together too, at the moment the Rex Breeds share Rex shows so why not a Rex section.
    I may go as far as to say maybe the Siamese & Orientals should merge together too.
    These changes are for the good of the Fancy in general & we must look at the bigger picture.

  12. I'm not particularly in favour of Asians going into the Burmese section despite them being the same type. The vast range of colours and patterns in the Asian breed is a very daunting prospect for a new judge, unless they already have breeding experience - in fact I'd go so far as to say that there is no other breed that presents quite such a challenge to judge......the burmese colour restriction gene seems to cause endless confusion, as does the presence or absence of the silver gene, not to mention the degree of overlap between shaded and ticked patterns!
    however, IF Asians and Burmese do share a section in future, I feel that they should be kept completely separate - even in misc. classes.
    Agree with Suzanne that it could be worth looking at merging Siamese/Oriental.

  13. Caroline your argument there is slightly flawed in that several British Shorthair shows now cater for the Selkirk too - Southern British and the British Shorthair Cat Club to name two.

    Others have stated the arguments more eloquently than me but there are a good number of judges able to judge the British Imperial and show managers need to look at employing the full list of judges. Also as Nicky says there are several judges who will be joining the list in the coming months/fairly near future.

    It is actually harder for Rex Breed shows to find judges who can judge Selkirks and other Rex breeds than it is for show managers to find judges for the British Imperial classes. I know this is a big headache for some show managers of the Rex Breed shows as there are fewer judges who are judges of all of the Rex breeds....

    As Ann says the move would not be viewed with favour by many breeders and exhibitors of Devons, Cornish and La Perms who recognise that the conformation of the Selkirk is completely different from that of the other breeds and with the largest part of the SOP allocated to type this is why the Selkirk is in the British Section. In type they are far more similar to the British than other Rexes. Indeed even their coat is completely different from the coats of the other Rex breeds.

    I am really glad for the Foreign section breeds that they are considering dividing it up as it certainly needs doing. However I personally don't feel the Selkirk Rex breed should have any bearing on how the Foreign Section is divided.

    Such a move would need the support of the breed club members who are both breeders and exhibitors and the BAC which represents the breed.

    Just for the record the above is my personal opinion and not that of any club of which I am member/representative!

  14. Caroline Prout commented the British have strict guidlines to eye colour, coat patern and coat length therefore so much harder to breed & fault.

    Sorry Caroline ...... read the Manx SOP and they have been in the British Section longer than my cats!!!!!!

  15. Yet again people are not seeing the bigger picture, they are only caught up in their own breed and not concerned with what will help the fancy as a whole.
    The Foreign Section as it is at present is too big and new breeds waiting in the wings who will be put in that section, taking out just the Asians will not help in the long run, we will be back where we started before we know it.
    More breeds need to be moved and the obvious ones are Rex coated breeds, sorry if this is not to everybodys taste but sometimes we just need to grin & bare it for the good it will do in the long run.
    Maybe the Devons & the Cornish should come into the British Section, after all they are British cats.
    Re the comment regarding Manx, lets face it its a dying breed, when do we ever see a Manx at a show & not a breed that would get recognition in the modern fancy.

  16. I believe we need a radical change to showing our cats, nowadays there can be more than twice the number of open classes to cats entered. When I started showing in 1984 there were 16 chocolate burmese kittens in my first show now you would be very lucky to get 16 burmese cats at a show. This is not the only section to have dimished dramaticaly, as you can all see most sections have suffered the same demise. The SLH section is the only one to buck the trend.
    If we go on like this shows will not be finacialy viable and clubs and shows will disappear. Where will that leave the GCCF and us?

  17. I started showing in 1985 and I can also remember much larger classes than we have now. But I think this is just part of a general trend - people nowadays simply can't be bothered to spend a whole Saturday (or Sunday) at a cat show - it's far too boring! The younger generation of today (in the words of Freddie Mercury) want it all and want it now,....... why bother spending years training to be a judge, or why bother taking a cat to numerous shows in order to gain a title?
    So I think it's great that GCCF are recognising this trend and trying to come up with sensible solutions. Let's hope the solutions won't be too late.

  18. Hey Caroline

    I really do object to your statement that it is more difficult to breed a good British than a good Devon/Cornish/LaPerm! Just because we can breed them in a rainbow of colours does not make it easier. Indeed, because we dont have points awarded to colour and/or pattern, we have a greater emphasis on type and coat quality. Still have to work towards 100 points, still have to conform to the SoP!

    Let's be honest here. The British Section do not want the competition from the Selkirks because it makes it more difficult for them to title their cats! Quite simple really. Same reason I do not want them in the Rex section - there are some stunning Selkirks on the bench at the moment However, this is wandering away from the subject of the Foreign Section.

    We have been the dumping ground for far too long for 'new' and 'different' breeds of cats. Judges have to be a jack of all trades in this section which can sometimes impact on the quality of the judging. There are judges that I simply will not place my cat under because I do not have any respect for their experience of my breed.

    We need to have a more breed specific grouping for the Foreign type cats, rather than a dumping ground for new breeds as it is at the moment.

  19. Ann has hit the nail on the head. Some British exhibitors don't want the Selkirks in the British section because it is stiff competition for them. There's some poor BSH being shown and some good Selkirk's, so surely if judging is to be impartial the best cats should be awarded the certificates?

  20. This is now becoming personal & on a breed level.
    We are trying to sort out the Cat Fancy in general and trying to put forward ideas to help.
    The only thing I see coming from Selkirk people is negatives.
    In answer to the competition in the British section from the Selkirks, this is not something that bothers me as recently I have made up an Imperial Ch, another on its way to Imperial, & a couple of Best in Sections.
    The British are a strong breed in quality and have no need to fear competition.

  21. I cannot see the negatives from the Selkirk people, all I can see is a slight dig at getting Selkirks out of the British section and so the SR exhibitors/breeders have given their explanations as to why they should be there.

  22. The negatives are : what ideas have been put forward to restructure the sections we have at present ? None as far as I can read.

    As at present the Foreign Section is too big and there are other breeds waiting in the wings to be included, by only taking out the Asians this would still leave the section on the large side and we would be back to square one once the new breeds came in.
    A few people and not just British breeders, have suggested a Rex Section, in fact I have heard from a lot more people in other breeds than from British people.
    And from Rex people saying having their own section would give them a better place to show case their breeds.
    Maybe this is the time to change all the sections, and the British Section should be what its says in the tin - for breeds from the UK.
    A lot more logical than what we have at the moment as in cats that kinda look like each other !

  23. May I remind everyone that the discussion is regarding the proposed Foreign Section review. There have been ideas put on the table and whilst I am sure there will be modifications, not everyone will be happy with the outcome, but a lot will be. This may be the start of a whole new look at the structure of all sections, but the review is looking at the largest and most complex at the present time. Please remember this is a public blog designed to replace Our Cats Comments page and anything to be printed must be suitable and relating to the topic.

    Thank you for your co-operation.

    Blog Admin

  24. Naomi wrote
    IF Asians and Burmese do share a section in future, I feel that they should be kept completely separate - even in misc. classes.

    At the present moment Burmese and Asians are not neessarily kept separate in side classes so why should that change?

    1. I see that this idea has been shelved because it would have made it difficult for judge/steward training - shame!